Hello El Degas Fans...

[mike tee]

My name is Mike and I am a new member. I have been lurking on the forum and reading all that I could here and in other sites. Fascinating subject and much that I have learned is dovetailing into my experiences with this. I have some hearsay anecdotes, factual points and photos of a 1974 El Degas Les Paul Custom replica guitar. For those who don't have interest in the following details, or just like their Ice Cream before dinner, the URL to the pictures is: http://imgur.com/a/4WQZ1- Just copy and paste it in your browser and you'll be there..

Starting at the beginning, I bought this instrument brand new in 1974 at the now defunct Monti's Music in Melrose Park, (west suburb of Chicago) IL. Emil Monti (actual name was Emil Fioramonti) and his brother Al primarily ran this store. They had been supplying various bands I was in since 1970 with equipment and I had purchased so much that a personal relationship had developed. Addionally, the keyboard players in several of the bands were practically staff the the store. I primarily was the lead singer and bass player in these bands until some personnel expansion & lineup changes added a full time bass player. We needed another guitar so I decided to devastate my nonexistant resources and get one. Emil had just started carying a new (to their store) guitar brand called El Degas. He was a Gibson-Fender-Ovation dealer and he wanted me and several other regular customers to check it out to see what we thought. I came in hooked it up to a Marshall stack and started testing it out. After a few hours of getting used to it and switching back and forth between the Degas and the Gibson, I came to the following conclusion. To my disbelief, after adjusting the bridge the El Degas actually had better action and playability than the Gibson, was actually slightly lighter. It seemed to have a better neck. Strings bent more smoothly against the fretboard as well. Now for the bad news. The pickups were not up to par with the Gibson units. They were both more muffled, and the Gibson pickup generated almost 50% more volume. On the neck pickup the difference was tiny, but the bridge pickups were vastly different. Additionally after even more days of usage, we found that the machine heads on the ED were not nearly as precise or stable as the Gibson. After using a Conn Strobotuner (remember those?) we discovered that the only way to get the intonation perfect at the octave was to reverse the bridge. These were all important but relatively inexpensive to solve problems.

I decided to buy the ED because it was 1/3 the cost of the Gibson, I preferred the way it played, and I felt I could spend a portion of the savings to rectify any shortcomings. At that time, the only real first class aftermarket rock pickups available were DiMarzios. Their guitar tech (back before we had Au Pairs, Baristas, and Luthiers!! HAH!) took off the factory tuning machines and installed Gotoh machines, and installed the DiMarzio humbucker Super Distortions. We took it back into the store when he finished and plugged back up to that Marshall. The difference in the bridge pickup was indescribable. Attack, volume, clarity, and when pushed wide open a very nice smooth distortion. The Tech labor and all parts were going to cost $125. Add that to the $200 or $225 the guitar was going to cost, the whole project was $350 or less vs the Gibson's $600 total price.

[charles]

Hey there, glad to have you on board

Thanks for sharing! With the right amount of care and the right pickups, these El Degas usually tend to be a-ok against a comparative Gibson of the same era. I think it really helped ED sales for Gibson & Fender to be going through their own issues in the 70's. It really set the stage for brands like ED to come in and make some in-roads.

[mike tee]

Thanks Charles! I had some difficulties editing the post so I split it up...

To continue, I bought the ED LP, had the mods done, and played it with the bridge reversed for the next 38 Years! Heheeh.. I still play it several times a week and is still my favorite playing guitar. I have a 2000 Fender American Standard Stratocaster, a 1981 black and gold Fender custom shop Telecaster, and 1976 Ovation Deacon 12 string solid body electric, a 1972 Telecaster bass, and an 2011 Ibanez Acoustic with built in pick up and EQ. These are ALL great playing instruments, but, to this day I still prefer the action of the ED Les Paul Custom over anything else I ever played.

[Barry]

Hi Mike and welcome.
Now, pix or it didn't happen!

[charles]

Hi Mike and welcome.
Now, pix or it didn't happen!

I just edited mike tee's post to make the imgur URL a clickable link. It wasn't immediately apparent that there was an URL in the post.

[mike tee]

Thanks! I couldn't seem to set the hyperlink..

[Barry]

Ah yes, much better! Thanks Charles.
That's a classic LP model, eh Mike?
Pickups always seem to be where the costs get cut on these things, so I can't blame you for replacing the original. I must confess that I also prefer the look of the bare humbucker, especially with creme bobbins, rather than the original metal cover. (The cover can also cut down on the magnetic signal strength, particularly if the pup is a marginal design to begin with, so removing it could only make it better IMHO.)

I would consider doing a bit of restorative wok on the body. It's fairly easy to buff out the scratches and scrapes with a good quality auto polishing compound such as Meguiars Ultimate Compound. Follow up with a good liquid hard finish wax. Presto! Beautiful again.

[mike tee]

Hi Barry,

Thanks for taking a look. Yeah, this was one of those 2 am photo sessions Charles refers to in his photo tips! I didn't put a cleaning cloth to it. It has, and can look a lot better. Even though it is in very good shape for a 38 year old guitar, it was played in recording studios and extremely active rock bands (gigging 3-4 nights per week) for over 10 years so it has some significant buckle scratching on the back (not through the paint but not polishable either), heavy plating wear, and a few nicks. I wouldnt restore this one because I don't trust anyone to get the paint the same as when it came from the factory new. This guitar is a daily player. I am surprised I haven't worn it out yet.

About those pups.. I felt the neck pup was close enough to the way a Gibson sounded (muddy) so I left it in there even though it didnt match the uncovered DiMarzio Super Distortion. I have seen Gibson LPs done that way as well.

For some additional ED conjecture, I understand Ibanez, Univox, and ED LPs were all mfg at Matsumoko until the great lawsuit by Norlin and possibly after. Look at my LP closely next to a picture of a Gibson LP, those inlays are perfect copies, shape, size, positioning and all. EDs were the closest copy of them all. Also, the tuners on this guitar are Univox/Gotoh units. You often see them on certain Ibanez LPs.

[Barry]

...I understand Ibanez, Univox, and ED LPs were all mfg at Matsumoko until the great lawsuit by Norlin...

There is such misconception and myth surrounding the "L" word, that when it arises in guitar conversation, I am moved to direct readers to this reference (scroll down a little): http://www.matsumoku.org/arai_matsumoku.html

[charles]

Yeah, but the word "lawsuit" moves a lot of guitars on eBay, don'cha know!

[Barry]

Yup!
Repeat something often enough especially in this Internet world, and it becomes "fact". Just adds to the general bull roar and makes things difficult for buyers to wade through the droppings. Caveat emptor!

[mike tee]

I made no specific representation as to the content of the lawsuit. I understand precisely what the lawsuit was about, I lived in Chicago at the time, where Chicago Musical Instruments and its successor Norlin, were domiciled. This was a big news locally and was constantly being discussed then. I was making reference to the headstock and neck copying. The head shape was the stated key, but it would be very hard to believe that, looking at the inlays on that headstock and neck, did not spur them to action. I will always believe that and no amount of hairsplitting will change my mind. After the lawsuit was settled, we still saw the LP body shape and even LP replica pick ups, but We never saw that headstock or those inlays again did we? Must have been coincidence.

[Barry]

Here's another "lawsuit" reference to chew on:
http://www.guitarattack.com/destroyer/lawsuit.htm

And as I understand it from several accounts, this did not go to an actual physical courtroom trial however, the lawsuit was brought by the Norlin Corporation (the parent company of Gibson) against Elger/Hoshino U.S.A.(Ibanez) on June 28th, 1977 in the Philadelphia Federal District Court, and was based on the Gibson headstock design. Hoshino settled out of court in early 1978 and the case was officially closed on February 2nd, 1978.

[mike tee]

Yes, that is how I understand it went. Don't you wish we could have ever laid eyes on that out of court settlement... Heheh... Here is something I have heard but has never been substantiated in print or even the interlie.. er internet... May I begin by first strating emphatically that this is hearsay. I am not purporting this to be a proven fact.

In my post I stated the original purchase point music store in Melrose Park IL. The owner told me that Univox, El Degas, and Ibanez were at that time sharing production facilities for their LP and other models. I never heard anyone mention Matsumoku back then. It was just 'manufacturing facility in Japan'. He repped all 3 lines and was in fact a personal friend of one of the principals of the El Degas distributor (B&J). I have no way to give the story credance other than that looking at common parts like tuners, tailstocks, and bridges etc. that looked to be identical or eerily similar. Have you or Charles or anyone else out there ever heard this 'shared facility' story or is it 100% BS? Does it even make any sense?

I added an original Gibson Les Paul Custom headstock closeup and an El Degas headstock photo on the imgur page http://imgur.com/a/4WQZ1.

[Barry]

For certain Mike, Univox was made by Matsumoku, and we've long speculated that the MIJ 1970's el Degas LP models in particular were of that plant. However, we have no solid proof, just an educated guess by people such as myself and a few others here who are "Uncle Mats" fans.

The Ibanez brand is a tough one. The brand name is generic, and controlled by Hoshino, but there have been a long line of manufacturers both inside and outside Japan over the years up to the present, building instruments under that banner, including, I believe, Matsumoku, wa-a-ay back in the early days.

Matsumoku was an instrument builder with its roots in fine cabinet making and owned by Singer (the sewing machine company) in the late 70's to late 80's. They were essentially a "white label" builder and shipped under many labels, too many to list here but even included Fender and Epiphone at one point. Eventually they began producing for the likes of Aria, Vantage, and finally marketed their own brand, Westone, in association with St. Louis Music. They produced some of the most innovative designs and circuitry ever seen up to that point. Some of the designs and the workmanship are simply stunning and unsurpassed to this day.

So long story short, it's very likely there was a shared facility among many brands, at least in the early stages of marketing and development.