El Degas F175 bridge question

[chuben]

I recently picked up a late 70s El Degas F 175 and I checked it over pretty good, but overlooked the bridge. I didn't notice the crack in the bridge until I was cleaning it, anyway the bridge and saddle looks odd and off-center, and I was wondering if it was original or has it been replaced.
https://imgur.com/vcsVJn3

[Barry]

Hello chuben.
It is normal for an acoustic guitar's saddle to be set an an angle relative to the bridge for correct intonation. No worries there.

However, you definitely have a serious crack in the bridge!
And the saddle slot looks like someone was trying to do something with a chisel? It has been cut or gouged at the front edge.

That adjustable saddle was commonly seen on acoustic guitars in the 70's. While it makes action adjustment theoretically easier, in practice it caused more problems than it solved, and it is a "tone sucker" as well, preventing full contact with the bridge or soundboard.

Your saddle is extremely low indicating that the string action has been very high and someone was trying to lower it. And i looks like it has reached the lowest setting.

The other issues with this kind of saddle are the extra wide bridge slot, and the bolts underneath those plastic dot circles.
Because the slot is much wider than normal and the bridge is not larger to accommodate it, the bridge is weakened. The string tension eventually pulls the bridge up (rotates) and pushes the soundboard down ahead of it.

In a standard glued down bridge it can still rotate, or it can simply fail and pull away from the soundboard. Either way it doesn't normally break, and a lifting bridge can be removed and re-glued.

Here, those bolts prevent the bridge from moving and cause the wood to split like you see in your picture.

I suspect you have high action. If not, you are out of adjustment when the guitar continues to move (and it will).

Unfortunately there's no easy repair.
Do not consider pumping the crack with glue! It will do nothing and it only makes any removal more difficult You really need a new bridge and saddle. However, that may not be adequate. Most likely you may be looking at a neck reset which is major surgery and the cost may not be worth it considering the value of the guitar.

If the guitar is playable i would just enjoy it while you can. I would recommend restringing it with lighter gauge strings, at least 11's or even 10's, to reduce the tension pull on the bridge.

[chuben]

The guitar does have high action and the intonation is pretty bad. I have ordered a Martin style bridge and bone saddle (Chinese) for $11 usd. I basically bought this guitar to experiment with, but it does sound pretty good, considering all its flaws. Thanks for the reply!

[Barry]

You're welcome.
I'm happy to hear that this is a learning project and not an expectation of full restoration.

You will acquire a lot of insight by removing and replacing the bridge and that knowledge is something that will always be available to you on the next project.

It isn't rocket science to remove the bridge but it must be done correctly and with care or it can end in tears. It sounds very much as if this ole gal ultimately needs a neck reset. Replacing the bridge and saddle likely won't improve the action.

But if you are successful with your "operation" you might stabilize it enough to make it playable with lighter strings and/or a capo, or even as a slide guitar. So I'd consider that a "win" eh?

Good luck with your project and post some pictures of your progress!

p.s. Please remember that there are 2 small bolts under those dots that need to be taken out before you attempt the bridge removal!

[chuben]

Those aren’t bolts, they’re wood screws. I was thinking this may be normal until I felt the ends of the screws, that was a red flag that someone may have reglued the bridge. I have reglued a bridge in the past. I told my neighbor that I’d restring a Martin X series of his. I put the strings on and got out in tune, the while strumming it I heard a cracking like sound and noticed the bridge had lifted.. I nearly freaked out! I ordered glue and a jig and glued it back in place, but it lifted again. I soon found out this top was high pressure laminate (Formica) and this is a common problem.

[Barry]

Screws?! That's worse than bolts, which are the norm found in this vintage era.
Glad to hear you've discovered them!

Whether bolts or screws they serve no real purpose and they cause the sound board behind the bridge to "belly up" under tension instead of letting the bridge fail so you can re-glue it. A really bad idea.

When repairing a lifting bridge it is always recommended to remove it completely and clean and prep both surfaces before gluing it down. If you only apply glue into the gap and clamp it will fail almost every time, regardless of the materials involved.

Those Martin X are a special consideration.
HPL and wood are a difficult pair to bond, and even top quality wood glue is not going to be up for the challenge. It is similar to gluing a bridge on an Ovation: wood to thick Urethane finish (wood to plastic).

The only reliable adhesive to use is an epoxy in that case.

If this is a known problem for Martin then it points to improper preparation of the parts, or the wrong adhesive, or both. As I understand it these are made in Mexico so probably do not come under the same quality control oversight as American made Martins.

[chuben]

I had a Martin Custom X and the top was wood, but his was all hpl. Hpl is almost bulletproof and the laminated neck is the same, plus is sounds pretty good. Its biggest downfall, in my opinion, is that the wood to hpl bonding sucks. Hopefully Martin will figure out a solution, if they haven’t already.

[Barry]

I worked at my local guitar shop as a tech, and we carried this line for awhile. Never had them long enough to have one returned with this issue but they did play very nicely and had a surprisingly rich tone.

Come to think of it we had the models with actual wood tops not HPL so that may have been the difference.

It was hard to look at the name on the head stock and know that you were playing plastic though.
As I said above the only sure way to anchor that bridge down on an HPL top would be to use epoxy.

[chuben]

Well, I tackled the bridge and it came of clean, except the small area of finish came off. There were two tiny bolts and nuts, not screws, like it thought. The new bridge and saddle is supposed to arrive Tuesday. I’m a little concerned about the plate underneath the bridge. It feels pretty rough and replacing it seems challenging.

[chuben]

Well, I tackled the bridge and it came off clean, except the small area of finish came off. There were two tiny bolts and nuts, not screws, like it thought. The new bridge and saddle is supposed to arrive Tuesday. I’m a little concerned about the plate underneath the bridge. It feels pretty rough and replacing it seems challenging.

[Barry]

Well that's the first step done eh? Good stuff!

Having some finish come off is much better than having wood tear out. You can touch it up with shellac afterwards.
Lightly scoring the finish around the bridge perimeter with a sharp xacto knife first will help stop that from happening

I would not remove the bridge plate unless it is cracked like the bridge was, it's a lousy job to replace it and is not necessary. Check to see if it has come unglued. If it has you'll need to clean out the old glue (not an easy job either) then inject new glue and clamp it.

Just feeling rough is not a reason to take it out, most production bridges in this price range would only be finished on the side that's glued to the sound board. The inside face doesn't matter and is left rough cut.

Have a look with an inspection mirror or take a picture with a smart phone to see what's going on in there.

[chuben]

I would've thought this would have been solid, not veneer. I assume the person that drilled the additional hole was the one that screwed up the veneer? https://imgur.com/l4rSmSD

[Barry]

Hard to say for certain but the crack appears to follow the one on the bridge so it's likely to have "flexed"when the bridge rotated.

I can't tell from this view if the plate is broken below this top level ply, i.e., all the way through.
If it is, ideally it should be replaced.

But removing a bridge plate is not easy, especially if you don't have the correct tools, and you run the risk of damaging the soundboard or bracing.

However, if it's just the surface ply that's damaged (or even if not) I'd be thinking about gluing a thin solid maple (or other hard wood) plate over top of it and re-drilling the pin holes.

Ideally again, you would remove that broken top ply first, but you could get away with sanding the splinters and gluing on top of it since it's mainly an anchor for the string ball ends.

[chuben]

I feel as if it's the one ply... If I were to remove any loose pieces and glue wood over the plate. What would be the best thickness? Should I cut a piece the same size and cover it completely, or just a narrow strip? Does it have to be wood, or could it be a thin piece of steel, brass, polycarbonate sheet, or aluminum? I know that's a lot of questions and I appreciate any advice.

[Barry]

First of all, understand that this would not be done on a top end guitar and is not a normal repair procedure, but it will help make this guitar more stable without getting crazy complicated.

Use a hard wood like Maple. You'll have all kinds of adhesion problems and possible resonance issues with metal or plastic.

Again, ideally, if you can manage to measure it accurately you should cover the old plate completely, otherwise make a rectangular strip as wide as possible. Taking the bridge's trapezoid measurements while in place would be very hard to do.

It does not have to be very thick, somewhere around 1/8" should do. It will be more important that it be glued on solidly. That means also making a caul to go over it which will protect it from damage from the clamp jaws and also ensure equal pressure is applied to the new piece.

p.s. Of course, you'll also need a flat piece of wood to cover the bridge area on the top surface too. It wouldn't hurt to have it oversized either. That will help to flatten any 'belly bulge' that may have occurred behind the bridge.