335 or 345 copy

[Greenmanelishi]

Hi guys new to this as this is my first el Degas. Anyone know anything about this guitar. Hollow body with no center block in clown burst.
It is in very nice shape and cleaned up beautiful. I have heard they had maxon pickups but these have nothing at all written on the back and are original. I have also read that some were unmarked. Anyone have any info on them ? I am torn between keeping them I'm after a rewire with new pots and jacks and also bypassing the varatone. I have a few sets laying around a set of Epi classic 57s with the plastic still on them should do fine. Also in need of a tuning gear or set. Will be replacing the horrid stop bridge as the knife edge where it touches the string has plastic edges on it. Have to measure if the poles are the same as a gibsons. I own several guitars and this one is a project and to me screams old black keys . This is my first attempt at posting a photo bucket so here goes. I'd appreciate any info as the only markings is a sticker saying made I. Japan

[charles]

I edited in your Photobucket image code.

I do believe these ones with the Varitone are 345 copies. I had one way back when, probably 10 years ago or so. The Varitone was kinda neat but didn't do a whole lot to the tone; I didn't feel the need to rewire to cut it out of the chain in mine but I understand the sentiment .

Something to watch out for on replacing bridges and similar parts on these guitars is that they use Asian, metric parts - Gibson USA will not fit. Measure twice and be careful!

I've seen some 345 copies with stamped Maxon pickups but I do not know if Maxons are in all of these.

I suspect this is a fairly early MIJ copy - you normally do not see the rounded end on the fretboard where the neck meets the body on later copies.

Hope all goes well - please do keep us updated on your progress!

[Greenmanelishi]

Thanks for the info and editing the image in , not much out there to go on anymore I was suspicious about the bridge because the holes are oblong in case machining wasn't quite on par lol. I have seen some cheaper roller bridges on e bay that are made in Asia would rather elongate on of them than a good Gibson one. Anything has to be better than the plastic knife edges that make string contact on the bridge. That has to be a tone killer for sure. The pick ups look like pics I've seen of maxons that came out a few of these, flat pole pieces, that resin on the bottom and just the over all appearance. I believe the gentleman said 1000s and 2000s were not marked but all told the 57 classics I have might be more suited to it in the long run. At least a complete rewire will be somewhat easier because of the totally hollow body. Gibsons with the tone block always involved the string wrapped around the pot shafts to pull them through lol. I will kep you informed as I really like the feel of the guitar. Can't beat the shape or straightness of the body and neck either. Was especially surprised the pick guard was still there lol
Thanks again

[charles]

Glad to help. Best of luck, can't wait to see the results.

[Barry]

I agree Charles, a nice 345'sh copy there. Although it looks more like it may have started life as 330 and reworked (at the factory) to give it 345 features. The trapeze tail would have been integral to the 330 design for example because it's hollow.

The bridge appears to be more a Nashville style rather than the more common and narrower ABR-1 found on the 330. And I wouldn't be so quick to remove the "plastic" saddles (nylon I believe). Those were/are the proper ones for a 330 (hollow) body and you'll find they compliment and contribute to the tonal character of this guitar rather than suck the tone.

Switching to metal saddles will sharpen the sound considerably and you'll lose the woody/blusey sound that these guitars offer. Metal belongs on the 335 (solid centre style). On this one the sound will shout at you!

If the plastic is worn, by all means replace them...but stay with the plastic!

[Greenmanelishi]

Thanks for the info on the nylon saddles. Have to see if I can source out a set of them

[Barry]

p.s. Depending on your budget also look at Tusq saddles which will offer increased sustain and last longer than the nylon.

[ElMan335]

Hi, new to the forum! I have owned an El Degas ES-345 guitar since 1974, bought new in San Diego. The discussion on saddles for the guitar interested me. I ran into the same problem, getting the correct size/thread to replace the saddles. It may be easier to just get the whole bridge. On tone, yes, the plastic saddles mate up well with slinky string sets and help to damp the sound resonance when running under high amp settings. But recently, I wanted to try flat wound strings (D'Addario Chromes XL 10-48) on the guitar and put metal saddles back on to brighten the more subdued flat wounds back up a bit. That combo worked great! So, plastic for round wounds and metal for flat wounds.

Congrats on taking up the gitter challenge! You will have finger pain, just part of the learning process. Some have commented that once your callouses are built up on the fingertips, that you'll be good to go. Well, there's another thing you have to go through. The callouses come pretty quick, but even with them, you may find yourself with pain still. An aching pain when pressing the the fingertips. These are bone bruises. Your body will start to build up calcium pads on the end of your fingertip bones. If you practice everyday, you may get through all of this in 9-12 months. Don't give up! Also, beginners always play with too much force. Your hand will crap and complain! If your cords sound sour, but the instrument is in tune, it is a sign that you are pressing too hard. Your bending the string as you push it down, causing the tone to go sharp. The guitar will reward you with good sound if you listen to what it is telling you.

[ElMan335]

Beautiful guitar! I have the same one, ES-345 with Varitone. I've had it since 1974... What makes these guitars so special is the fact that they do NOT have the maple center block running down the inside of the guitar. It is much more of an untamed animal than the Gibson or Epiphone ES-335. If your rewiring it, make sure you get the grounding right, or the guitar WILL howl at you when brought up to volume. Think Ted Nugent...

The Varitone from El Degas was never really right. The circuit is supposed to have an inductor included which changes the sound profile tremendously. If your wiring is stock, then Position #1 bypasses the Varitone completely. No need to take it out of the circuit.

I have only seen 2, complete El Degas ES-345 guitars on line. Congratulations on finding hen's teeth there! Mine is cherry starburst too, I love that paint!

[charles]

Super interesting info on the varitone! Thanks for that, and welcome.

[ElMan335]

I added a 2.5mH inductor, behind the bridge maple riser block, the only reinforcement in the guitar between the top and bottom. Position #1 is bypass. Position #2 is only the inductor. Positions 3-6 are increasing capacitors, which notch out the base frequency each position is tuned to. I also added an additional 20K linear pot which is in series with the final output going to the jack. This pot allows the adjustment of the output impedance to match the particular amp it's hooked to. It's a push/pull, when up it bypasses the pot. This control is worth gold when setting up! You can hear the center frequency for the guitar shift as the impedance is adjusted.

When people say Varitones are "tone sucks" I think they are playing a MIJ Varitone guitar without the inductor. You can look up on-line for the original Gibson schematic, it's really interesting! When I re-wired it, I put in push/pull pots for the volume/tone controls and 4-wire pickups (Stewmac). It is the Jimmy Page wiring, which is remarkably versatile in the sound setup! (Coil splits, series pickup wiring and cross-phase). I do not have ANY feedback problems due to the open construction. Stage feedback is usually a setup issue, or wrong selection of controls on the guitar, or you and/or the monitors are in the wrong spot on stage.

I had a Gibson ES-335 guitar for about 3 years while I've had this guitar since 1974. I ended up selling the Gibson, keeping the El Degas and getting a '98 Les Paul Standard. I'll tell you what a real tone suck is, it's that dang maple center block they have running down the middle of the thing! El Degas was on the right track! I never realized that they built so many different instruments, but in actuality El Degas was a marketing arm.

Since it seems you and me are the last EG guys (the site is pretty quiet and thanks for the welcome!) I would like to ask you a question, Charles. I heard that the last batch of EG guitars constructed in Japan was at a large shop that burned to the ground. They lost an incredible amount of inventory, as many guitars were sitting, curing their finishes. Also, information and patterns were lost.

I really enjoy looking over the site! I'll get the pictures thing figured out and post some of the guitar. I re-did the finish in nitrocellulose lacquer in 2024 and it looks brand new!

[Barry]

Wow, you've been busy!
You have solved the "meh" opinion I have had on the these 345 varitone clones. Not so much a tone suck as an undifferentiated effect from position to position in my experience. You've hit on the missing link methinks, thanks for clearing that up!

I have a '64 Gibson ES330 (completely hollow) which is an amazing tone machine and handles everything from blues and jazz to in-yer-face rock and roll! And yes, she can feed back like crazy if you want it, but that is controllable and offers yet another musical option.

Charles will likely have some more to add, but El Degas was a "white label" brand name not a manufacturer. In fact there were many manufacturers, in Japan, Korea, and even Romania(!) among others, with wildly varying quality, and were built to order. Generally speaking the MIJ's were the best built along with MIK's.

Given this fact there was no single repository of ED instruments, therefore it would not have been possible to burn down the entire inventory. In fact the whole burning story is nothing but an urban myth and it is usually attributable to the legendary Japanese builder Matsumoku's plant. I can tell you for a fact that it never happened. Mats was owned by the Singer Corp and went bankrupt. Any inventory went to selected other Japanese or Korean builders. No fire. Anywhere.

Yeah, it has been very quiet in here for a long time and we appreciate your detailed posting. Most guitar forums are suffering from the same slow down. I guess the interest in the 70's and 80's vintage guitars has peaked. Hell, you can get amazing brand new instruments from China now which are in many respects head and shoulders above the big names, virtually flawless, and for peanut prices.

And hey you ain't the only two guys hanging around! A look at the "who's online" info on the home page will almost always show that there is interest and activity in the background, mostly by unregistered guests (plus the inevitable 'bots')

Once again, thanks for taking the time to post and add to the ED historical library!

[charles]

I heard that the last batch of EG guitars constructed in Japan was at a large shop that burned to the ground. They lost an incredible amount of inventory, as many guitars were sitting, curing their finishes. Also, information and patterns were lost.

This goes with the claims (usually by sellers hoping to elevate their online sale post for an El Degas instrument...) of the guitars being made at Matsumoku (when it's not being claimed it's FujiGen Gakki or Hoshino).

Some sources say the Matsumoku production plant had a fire, circa late 80s. Info is a bit scattered and sketchy so I don't have a firm source on that and even the Wikipedia entry for Matsumoku contributes MAtsumoku's closure in the 80s being due to economic factors, not fire. So even this fire is sorta in-dispute. Like so much around the guitar world, info seems to spread like a game of "Telephone" and ends up starting to sound like myth-making! For example, it's believed that the production for El Degas may have already begun to shift to Korea around this time (coinciding with the brand's sale to Kamen Music), so whether El Degas themselves lost anything in the fire that itself may or may not have happened, is unknown.

Every single "fact" you will find even on this forum is, largely, a series of hopefully well-meaning educated-guesses. This includes basic info like when and where these instruments were made. It's a result of there being just about no surviving public-facing info on the company - we're trying to pick up on shreds of info and piece something together - it does not always result in something you can have much confidence about. Over the years (and particularly in my early years trying to get info on these instruments), I would imagine I myself likely contributed to the conjecture and rumor-making around the brand based on off-hand info I came across here and there - something I have an uneasy feeling about all these years later.

Just a note: @Barry is probably a better source of info on Matsumoku than I would be.

Some reading:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3AMatsumoku
viewtopic.php?t=396

[charles]

lol of course Barry manages to slip in a detailed and thoughtful post while I'm monkeying around with my wording for 30 minutes.

[ElMan335]

Great info, Barry! Yes, I ran across a story debunking the fire thing. I figured I would get a definitive answer on this site. And as Charles mentions, one has to take ED stories with a grain of salt.

After all the research I did, I was discovering that they were mainly a Canadian distributor which had linkage to distribution in NY and the American market. Is that mainly correct? So how the hell did my ES-345 end up on the west coast in 1974? Not sure, it must have been hand carried by someone across the States and sold there locally in San Diego. There were no other ED's in any of the guitar shops I visited. I can't remember what I paid for it, but being I was broke as a joke in '74, it couldn't have been a lot! I think it was around $200 and the guitar shop put it in an older Gibson case minus the shroud cloth.

I was playing Led, Stones and other rock genre on it. Even though it is a bolted neck, the sound and action are every bit on par with my Gibson LP. Back in the day, I foolishly put some outrageously hot humbucker bridge pickup in it, 13K ohms! That was just young and dumb. During my band days, it had the standard wiring in it and it was a screamer! We used to do Stranglehold in our set and it was perfect!

So glad to see some folks are still interested enough to post. Thank you for letting me know to check who's on-line in the forum. If anybody needs any help with wiring questions just fire away. I love to be involved!